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Post by tigerlily on Feb 24, 2009 11:04:37 GMT -8
I've been married for almost eight years... The problem, which has been an issue between us from day one, is his relationship with his controlling, manipulating, and toxic father. Issues have ranged from small things like constantly keeping tabs on each other to his father physically threatening me just after we were married. I could write a book about everything in between, but my husband just doesn't seem to get it!
It is almost as if I am forever an outsider looking in at my husband, his father, his sister, and his mother. And that I am just expected to meld into his previous life. They are always involved in every aspect of each others lives, and still have the yearly traditions that I am expected to attend. While we have no traditons or activities of our own. And while I do like his mother very much, I cannot stand to be around his father and his sister. I even get physically ill and break out in hives after being around them.
Part of the issue is that I have never said no or enforced my boundaries, in order to make him happy and spare his feelings. I accept and admit the blame in that, so recently I started going to counseling, and Al Anon meetings (both my husband and father in law are recovering addicts), and he just says he is "trying". He finally agreed to go to see the counselor this Wednesday, but she has already told me that he will not like what she has to say. I've tried to get him to understand and see the harmful behaviors, and that I've built up a resentment towards him for never addressing the issues with his father (i.e. him threatening me), and that I am just expected to get over it.
In attending counseling and meetings, I've learned that I must enforce healthy boundaries for myself. And I finally had to tell him that I can no longer be around them unless on special occasions. But everytime I try to say no, I just get flack from him about how I am not compromising, and he thinks that I am only building walls, not enforcing boundaries. Well I am over it! I am saying NO and that is my final word. I am no longer going to allow him to manipulate or guilt me into doing something that is not healthy for me. I am tired of feelings like he'd rather sacrifice my emotional and physical well being for the sake of them not feeling uncomfortable.
Three months and his measley 2 counseling sessions have not made one bit of difference thus far, so until and unless I see him making an effort, I can only assume that he has made his choice, which means that I will need to make my own!
Thanks T
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Post by jamersasu on Mar 5, 2009 14:31:48 GMT -8
It sounds like you are in a very tough situation and my heart goes out to you.
I am at a similar place and it is tough to know what to do.
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Post by tigerlily on Mar 17, 2009 9:24:56 GMT -8
Thanks for the response Jamers...I'm sorry to hear that you are also going through something similar. I know how painful this can all be.
At this point, I am feeling just a bit sad. I just went to my 7th counseling session yesterday, and my DH has his 2nd appt in Jan. I have finally laid things out in balck and white for him. and I feel better. If it involves his family one on one, then my answer is NO. If there are other people involved, then it is up for discussion and compromise. So in theory, he should know my answer before he even asks, and quite frankly, should not even ask if is a one on one situation. He didn't have much to say about it, and really what could he say? Those are my boundaries and there is no discussion.
What I am really struggling with right now is his decision to apparently not go to counseling or do anything really. His last appt, the therapist assigned him homework to read the book, 'Co Dependent No More', and he has not done that. In fact, I got it on cd, and have been listening to it on my way back and forth to work. It is helping me a lot.
So my question is...Do I have a right to be upset about him not really doing anyhting? Or just continue on with my boundaries, and have nothing to do with his family for the rest of our lives, and he can just deal with it? It will not get better between his family and I if he does nothing.
Idk...
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Post by amazed on Mar 26, 2009 10:33:11 GMT -8
Well, I did the boundaries thing for quite a while, but it didn't REALLY change much of anything other than I was no longer expected to associate with his family, or the toxic ones anyway. That would be his mother and sister. Since his mother had really moved on with her life, chasing around men younger than my husband, she wasn't much of an issue, either. But things didn't really change, and we didn't really become a family until we moved 800 miles away.
Now sis and mom are stuck with each other and we hear from them about twice a year. They understand that they are not welcome in my home, even for a short visit. End of story.
I hope this helps. It has been a long 11 years, but the last three have been worth it.
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Post by tigerlily on Mar 26, 2009 11:36:51 GMT -8
Amazed...I am so jealous. I wish we could move 800 miles away and only here from them twice a year. But alas my husband wont leave his job...
I guess for now, I will just keep sticking to my guns and enforcing my boundaries. But I am sure it will come to a head at some point, but that's okay too. I am and have been ready for that and I do not have to defend or explain my choices to them.
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Post by amazed on Mar 26, 2009 11:58:03 GMT -8
I don't think or expect most relationships work out the way that mine did. For one thing, do notice that MIL moved on. I think that my husband was her substitute while her husband was disabled, which was for a couple of decades. Once her husband died, she dropped my husband, and fast. He still hung around her, or tried to, and he still hung around his sister and the rest of his family, a lot. But I wanted to raise our daughter in a less toxic atmosphere. When I brought up moving, he jumped at the chance. It was also the economic conditions. Where we lived, housing had gone sky-high, with no jobs to support it. Moving to where we did made much more economic sense. That's another thing. Once we moved, we instantly had more money because he didn't have his family always reaching into his pocket. Another interesting aside: My husband always wanted to run his own business. I told him that there was no way that he could do this because he just didn't have the "gears." Let's face it, if you have your mom and the rest of your family boss you around your entire life, how the heck will you be able to run a business, collect debts, etc. Well, it's been three years that we have been here, and I think we are ready to open the business. Of course, I will run the front office because I still don't trust him to collect money, but I would have never done this years ago.
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Post by tigerlily on Mar 26, 2009 13:24:47 GMT -8
Good for you! Sounds like things have worked out for you and your family. It is so good to hear about a success story.
Even if the circumstances were right, my husband would not jump at any chance to move. He was born and raised here in Montana, and has stated time and time again that he will never leave. I don't understand the thinking in that, since we have had our fair share of financial difficulties due to the job market and such as well. But now he works for the state, and not only makes a good wage, but has two retirements, and benefits out the wazoo! LOL I also have a well paying job with benefits, so we are better off than a lot of people around here, but I would jump at the chance to move someplace more exciting and far away from "them". I was brougth up in a big city, and will always have that in me, besides just the desire to see the world, and experience different places and cultures. He is more a creature of habit, besides having that invisible ubilicle cord still attached.
I do feel better since laying out my boundaries in black and white, but it is still a struggle and I imagine that it always will be until he gets help too. Even just a couple of days ago he mentioned that his parents still wanted to take us out to dinner for our birthdays. I ignored him, but plan on asking him tonight to stop mentioning it, and if he would like to go then he can, but I will not be. He only went to counseling twice, and has just stopped going. I confronted him about this last week, and he said he was going to go back but just had a bunch of lame excuses as to why he hadn't. He got a lil angry and defensive saying once again that I never give him credit for what he has done, and I want everything done on my time schedule. I told him that was not true and it just seems to me that it is more of a priority to me than to him, and needed to know where I stand. Not to compare, but let's be real...I am on my 8th counseling appt, going to Al Anon meetings once a week, and reading about how to have better boundaries. I am doing eveything I can to improve myself, thus our relationship. And still he hasn't made another appt...but I don't think that it's me wanting it done on my time schedule, it's that I want him to show an effort and that it is important to him.
So, I've continued on with my plan. In fact, I just applied for another job in Oregon that pays very well with the city. Looking at apartments and we will see what happens from here. I can't do much else.
Thanks for listening, Tiger
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Post by amazed on Mar 26, 2009 15:58:46 GMT -8
Time schedule? Didn't you say that he hasn't gone to counseling two months?
My husband use to pull that stuff, too. What it comes down to is respect. He doesn't respect you or the relationship enough to put the time into it.
And I'm sorry but asking if you want to go out with his parents on YOUR birthday is ridiculous. Frankly, on his birthday is kind of strange, too, but YOURS?
It took forever for my husband to GET that his family meant him, me and our daughter. Not him and his mother and the rest of the clan.
Please don't feel bad, because I did the same stuff as you, but I finally started to ignore him and his family and get a life. Once I REALLY started talking to my mother, a woman that has money to hire a good lawyer he finally saw the light. He was either going to get with the program or he was going to lose.
Remember, these freaky family members are probably not going to do well in a custody battle! LOL!
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Post by tigerlily on Mar 27, 2009 8:12:13 GMT -8
I know...it's all total BS and just lame excuses.
Last night I tried to have a civilized conversation with him, and asked that he not bring up dinner with his parents again. It ended up being an argument and I left eary to go to my Al Anon meeting. When I got home, he acted as if it never happened, but I was still pissed. This morning he was trying to kiss up and I wasn't having it.
We've been texting all morning while I've been at work. And he told me that he felt like everything has been about me lately, and he is being put on the back burner. Which is interesting since everyhting has been about him for 9 friggen years! I told him that last night I almost asked him to move out, and if we need to be apart in order for me to learn to take care of myself, then maybe that needs to be what happens. He said he didn't think that was the right thing, and we just need to keep trying. I told him that he needs to do something and quit just saying it.
He made an appointment to see the counselor...whatever! At this point, I am tired of fighting and hearing him say he is gonna try, and I told him so. I am continuing on with my job search in Oregon, and will see what happens from there. I did decide that if we seperate, I am not moving, he is.
Thanks for listening...again. And for sharing your experience. How's the weather in TN? It's tryin to snow here! LOL
Tiger
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Post by amazed on Mar 29, 2009 20:27:15 GMT -8
When I read your post I laughed out loud, regarding the it's all about you statement. It's midnight and I just let out a huge laugh. Good that my family sleeps sound! Do this: Drop a pencil. Try to pick it up. Right. You either pick it up or you don't. I hate the "I'm trying" routine. My DH use to do the same thing. He'd hound me about his family. Please go to Thanksgiving. Please, please, please. Then of course, I would go only to have the event turn to crap and he would treat me like dirt. I won't give you the details but they were truly awful. Eventually, I had had enough and he knew it. And unless you find Al-Anon a lot of fun, like you have friends there, I would start to think about that, too. Unless it is for you, and you are getting something out of it, I wouldn't go. I mean if it is just for him, then it is another way that you are showing him that it is "all about him." I hope I made sense with that last paragraph. I might be too sleepy. It's been nice here. In the 60s, mostly. But today was only in the 4os and tonight might get into the 30s. We have a lot of flowering trees, tulips, daffodils, so we are hoping there is no damage. Tomorrow, though, it should be in the 60s, again. Keep your chin up!
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Post by tigerlily on Mar 30, 2009 6:05:37 GMT -8
LOL...I sometimes have to laugh to keep from crying. And in hindsight, it is pretty comical that he doesn't realize how he sounds. I was quite angry after we had our "discussion", but have now cooled off, and I know that I am doing the right thing for myself, and will continue to hold to my boundaries. I told him that if he would like to go see the counselor together, I would be all for it. In fact it might be good to have a mediator, since he feels that I dont let him talk. But he never really answered me, so I just told him to let me know.
This weekend I told him about the job I applied for in Oregon, and he said that if I get it and take it, he cannot go. And I told him that if that happened, I would be going alone. Not much more discussion on that, but even afterwards he acted fine, and we ended up having a decent day together. I guess he still doesn't believe me, or has just resided himself to the fact that he can't do anything about it, idk? I also asked him what he would have done if I had asked him to leave, and he said he wasn't sure. He said he probably would not have, but that he wasn't going to answer that question (with a chuckle), as if not wanting to give me any indication of what to expect if that were to happen in the future?
I'm sure his parents keep bringing up the dinner thing and that is why he mentioned it again, but I am trying to be very direct in asking him for what I need, hence not bringing it up again. Isn't that what communication is? The good thing is that I don't worry anymore about his response or trying to save him from feeling bad...his emotions and feelings are his, and I can no longer feel bad for him feeling bad.
I do feel as if I have gotten something out of Al Anon, but in a way I must admit that I feel as if it's like...he goes to meetings, so I have my own meeting too...so there! : )~ Kind of juvenille I suppose, but in going I have learned that I am just as important, and my boundaries have been vitually non existent.
We got 9 inches of snow yesterday! Where is Spring?
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Post by amazed on Apr 3, 2009 16:26:31 GMT -8
First of all, I apologize for being away from the forum for a few days. I have some health issues. Nothing life threatening, but a few things at once that add up to one big pain in the butt, sometimes. I guess you don't have any kids. Honestly, if we didn't have our kid, I am quite sure that my husband would have not followed me. The kid played into it on so many levels. So please, don't feel bad. Some guys know that they are tied to mom and are not going to do anything about it. It's all they know and they like it that way, strange as it may sound. Also - and I can't stress this enough - my husband's mother started chasing guys after his father died. Young guys. Guys the age of my husband. So she stopped the covert incest deal. Once hubby was dead there was no point in using my husband for the substitute. She went out to get her own. And creepily enough, when my FIL died, my husband was right over there at the house. He spent a weekend over there. He didn't want to come home. Once I put my foot down, and he had to stay home for a few days, MIL was off like a shot looking for men at the bar. Why do I bring this up? Because I think I would have been in the exact same boat, but my husband moved with me because, really, his mother wasn't around anymore. And don't think I didn't resent it. I knew darn well that he didn't move because he was madly in love with me. And then there was the EWWWW factor. Once we got away, I had to give him a second look at think, "Do I really want to be with this Mama's boy?" Essentially, I am with him for our child. End of story. These are things that I want to tell you so you understand that his not coming with you is not as big of a deal as it feels right now. It's one of those, "careful what you wish for" things. Hope it's getting warmer for you!
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Post by tigerlily on Apr 6, 2009 15:02:51 GMT -8
Hi Amazed,
I appreciate you sharing your story, and being so honest.
I have found myself at in impass at the moment. My DH finally talked to me, and without anger or defensiveness. Honestly, I don't even remember how the conversation got started, but about 2 1/2 hours later, we had actually got some things out.
Bottom line for him is that I still hold anger and resentment towards him from the beginning of our marriage. He admitted being a poor husband, and should not have allowed a lot of things to take place. But he told me that if I cannot learn to forgive him, then he will never be able to outlive that hurt. I listened intently to what he had to say, feeling sorry for holding onto to all of this for so long, but wondering if I could ever let it go. I have literally been angry and have felt betrayed by him since before we even got married.
So I walked into my counseling appt this morning, and dropped the bomb on her that I feel confused about whether I can or even want to forgive him. She said that it sounded as if I was ready to leave, and holding on to all of this anger and resentment only gives me the excuse to do so. If I cannot or do not want to forgive him, then there is no point in continuing on with the marriage. I am so conflicted about this, because I feel like I am still hanging on to that little thread, but I cant keep blaming him for everything if we are going to make any progress in a positive direction. I have to forgive him, but I am so scared of being hurt again.
I'm in a little bit of a haze today...not knowing how or what to feel. We are both going to see her next week together. And maybe that will help me/us figure things out. I admitted that I was unhappy with my life, and that I wasn't really sure if this was the life that I wanted. But I am scared to think that I might be giving up on the love of my life.
We do not have kids...in fact I'm not able to have them without the help pf science (IVF). We decided a few years ago that we did not want to go through all of that, and quite honestly could not afford it. And neither of us are interested in adoption. It was difficult but I am thankful since all of this would be just that much more difficult.
Thanks for listening... I will write more later, perhaps when I am in a better frame of mind. T
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Post by amazed on Apr 10, 2009 14:13:28 GMT -8
I think it was a huge step for him to admit that he was a poor husband, but on the other hand he is looking for from something you, too. Forgiveness. It would have been nicer to have just admitted his part and dropped it. I am with my husband because of our daughter. End of story. I would not be with him if it wasn't for that. We are away from crazy MIL and SIL but none of that would matter if it wasn't for her. So I go about my business, and I am nice and polite to him, as he is to me, but that's the end of it. Just know that your feelings are valid. Being in a marriage where your husband doesn't stick up for you, is not there for you, etc. is a very bad situation. To me, it is not a valid marriage. I'll give you an example. It's pretty funny, now. About a year after we were up here, MIL had an operation. Something very non-threatening, but MIL wanted him with her. He didn't go. He really couldn't. He had to work and it was not a big deal. Well, months later she gets a hold of him and he tells her he didn't go because he was in jail. Jail? Months, and months later his MIL casually mentions him being in jail and I am flabbergasted. Then it dawns on me. The little wuss was too afraid to tell he no. So...even though everything is great, he hasn't really changed. I've been with him 11 years. Hope that gives you some perspective.
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Post by tigerlily on Apr 11, 2009 11:01:00 GMT -8
OMG! He told her that he was in jail to avoid telling her the truth in that he could not just drop everything and run to her side? That is amazing and goes to show just exactly what lengths they are willing to go to in order to not stand up to them. Incredible...
I asked my DH just what emotions and feelings come up in him when he thinks about having to tell his family the reason I am not around, and used the example of when my sister came to visit. If he had told me that he did not want to be around her, and when she arrived she inquired about where he was, I would tell her that he had other plans (not a lie), if she persisted, I would tell her that he did not want to be around, and if she kept on, then I would tell her to call him up and ask him. And if that were to happen, I would have no feelings about it other than if she really wanted to know and felt compelled to confront him, then she can and they can discuss it. His answer was that he didn't know...yah, okay...I'm not surprised by his response although I don't believe him one bit. He is scared...Scared of being honest with his father/family. That to me, is not a very close or good relationship, even though he would say that his dad is his best friend (besides me). But maybe that made him think a little about why he has such an issue with it. Again, this will be brought up next Tuesday at our couseling appt.
I've been trying to get my thoughts and feelings together for this meeting since I intend to give him my bottomline. So far, I have a few things jotted down, but they still seem a bit vague and fragmented, so tomorrow I plan to take soem time to myself to work on being more specific, but tell me what you think of what I have so far...please.
My "Bottomline" Diary
*I admit that I am powerless, and that my life has become unmanagable.
*I want to be able to forgive you and let go of the resentment, but what happened (when your father physically threatened me) was an extremely huge hurt for me, and ever since I have been expecting and waiting for you to do it again. I think mostly because of the fact that you never addressed it with your father, and that makes me feel as if you are not capable of confronting him on his behavior. And this has affected my respect for you, since I am not confident that you can or will protect me and our relationship in the future.
*I am willing to compromise on anything except for my boundaries and my integrity.
*I can support what is important to you, but the motorcycle club does not serve my interests, and it is difficult for me to participate in something that goes against my principles.
*I am willing to stop fighting reality.
*I am not confident that our marriage can survive if my values and boundaries do not coincide with yours, and we do not have a common goal for our marriage and life together?
*I know that I need to make amends to you in order to forgive MYSELF...some of these things include...
1. Holding onto anger and resentment towards you.
2. Not enforcing my boundaries.
3. For going outside of our marriage for emotional support and betraying your trust.
Please be honest about what you think...anything I need to add or elaborate on? Any advice is welcome. You know exactly what I am going through and what I am dealing which, and I really respect your input.
Thanks T
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